"I had anxiety attacks"

Marius Krämer is co-founder of the start-up Heyvie. In this interview, he talks about why sick or exhausted people shouldn't come to work, how this attitude has changed his startup, and why this change is hardest for him himself.

It's been just under a year since Marius Krämer and his co-founder Hady Daboul officially launched their app. Heyvie is the name of the app, which is supposed to prevent or even actively combat headaches and migraines with the help of neurocentric training. The idea behind it: Every movement we make originally comes from the brain, and every movement reports back to the brain. In the meantime, the app is backed by a twelve-person team and founder Krämer had to realize that constant presenteeism, i.e. being sick or exhausted, doesn't work. So he rebuilt.

Mr. Krämer, you claim that I can reduce my migraines with my tongue. How is that supposed to work?

It can be done with the help of neurocentric training. This has been around for many years, but hardly anyone in Germany knows about it. The idea is that every movement can trigger and activate a certain reaction in the brain. This can reduce migraines, for example, because they often occur when one side of the brain, in certain areas of the brain, is less active. By using exercise to activate that side, we reduce the risk or severity of the migraine. This exercise can then be a movement with the tongue, but also with the jaw. This works preventively, but some of our users also use it when they notice that a migraine attack is rolling towards them, in order to then avert it.

Sounds a bit like a miracle cure. Is that scientific?

It's actually very scientific, there are many studies that show the activation of brain areas through movements and also that pain can be reduced by activating certain areas in the brain.

You've been running the app for over a year now. A lot has happened to you in the process, too.

I had a real "Lightbulb" moment just before Christmas last year. At that time, I was dealing with presenteeism, the phenomenon that people also come to work sick, exhausted or virtually unable to work. That can be back pain, headaches or migraines, and it costs companies a lot more productivity than they thought. I thought that was crass. And then I also thought to myself: Shit, you know this.

Founders have to accept: It's sometimes OK not to be productive.

Marius Krämer, Founder

What did you put it down to?

At the time, I was running twelve hours, 14 hours a day at work, then on weekends. But was that productive at all? As a founder, you always believe that you have to work as much as possible. But founders have to accept: It's sometimes OK not to be productive. And that has to apply to the team as well. Unlike the founders, they don't have a 40 or 50 percent stake in the company, but they're often expected to work as if that were the case. But no matter what the "hustle culture" is in the startup scene, I can't expose the team to that kind of risk. So as a stone-cold corporate person, maybe I could, but as a human being, I don't want to.

Have you noticed presenteeism in yourself as well?

I've had anxiety, as probably every founder does. I know at any given time what our funding is, what the runway is, how much money we're burning, when we're going to need money again, and then there's this huge outside pressure, all of that can paralyze you. And that's what presenteeism is like in the storybook: I'm present then, but I can't concentrate, I just jump from task to task and I'm no longer productive. That's completely human, but you first have to come to this realization and then change a lot of things.

That's why it's perfectly OK for us today if someone says: 'I can't concentrate now, my back is pressing against me or I have a state of anxiety. I'm not working now, I'm going to the bouldering hall.'

Marius Krämer, Founder

How can one imagine the process at your company?

'The first step was certainly to first accept the situation and talk about it openly with my co-founder. Then we changed our expectations of the team. Just because I put my health at risk by overworking myself, I can't expect that of my team. That's why today it's perfectly OK with us if someone says, 'I can't concentrate right now, my back is bothering me, or I have an anxiety condition. I'm not working now, I'm going to the bouldering gym.' Then he or she does the work either later in the evening when she's feeling better or maybe not until the next day, and we as founders think that's fine. I mean, why should I be against that? It doesn't do me any good if he or she sits in the office and can't get anything done. Two productive hours later are much more worthwhile.

Does this rule always apply?

We often try to make it possible, but of course it's not always possible. If there's a deadline and we really have to finish urgently, not everyone can spend the day in the park. We are a small start-up and not every position can be replaced at any time. But when it's possible, we want to make it easier for work to be designed around everyday life and not the other way around.

Meaning what, exactly?

It means, for example, employees get a call from family, they urgently need to go home. Then they're welcome to do that at any time. Or if they need time off, they can take it. I don't care who works where and when, the main thing is that the work gets done in the end. And I notice that the happier people are with their working hours and their flexibility, the more productive they become. We may work less in hours today, but get more done on paper.

It turns everything upside down.

Marius Krämer on asynchronous working

Does it also change work processes when half the workforce goes bouldering first thing on Monday morning instead of going to the office?

It turns everything upside down. That's why we're switching to asynchronous working. That means we write to each other on Slack or Notion, even if the person we're writing to is sitting next to us in the office. This often looks silly, but it makes sense. This way, the person can work through the message or comment when it suits them and isn't constantly pulled out. There are exceptions, of course, when something is urgent, then we tap on the shoulder or call.

Is this change difficult for the team?

It certainly takes time to get used to it as a team, but it's much worse for me and my co-founder Hady. As a founder, you're not necessarily on a high horse, but when I ask a question, I expect someone to answer it quickly. Of course, that's nonsense and when I think about it realistically, it doesn't matter at all if someone answers it immediately or not until the evening. I'm just learning to be more realistic.

Personal details: Marius Krämer, 31, studied International Management and then worked at Scaleup Bynder and has since been involved in various projects, including a crypto fintech based in Bielefeld. In his free time, he uses every minute to go bouldering or on camping trips with his dog and girlfriend.